How about "Porta Hottie"?

I believe we are seeing another first this pdf.

Intervention.

I do think the apology to fellow participants is a positive step. Especially contrite and the sincere-vibe it was. I know I applaud it.
I don't applaud apologies that are pr however. (not an accusation, but certainly those closest to you Dey need a sit down). Please understand this is not judgmental, it's coming from a much different place.

I do hope that campmates and friends and roommates may be able to help in the process that she is going to be on. With both compassion and absolute honesty....confrontation even, but absolutely compassion.

There is something to be said for all out honesty in what they are saying, regardless of how public, and likely painful. I *know* Dey will see that at some point if not in this moment.

I hope that this is one of those lessons for all of us.

And that ya'll remember to breathe.

Peace,
Tia

I second that Meesh. And for : “My Apologies for the Poop....” mean that she’s apologizing?

No I am sorry she apologized to all of you in the opening of this, not one word was mentioned about the people she went with or the camp and she even admitted that in her post later on saying she was waiting to speak to her therapist. This was made public, instead of being handled privately first. I sat on the couch next to her all of Monday waiting for something to be said, and this all before we discovered she was the Pooper of W&W.

Now with that said, hopefully the outpouring admiration can stop so she does realize the seriousness of her actions and it stops being a joke that is cheering her on. I'm sorry but that doesn't help. Joke, later when she is in therapy for a period of time and can look back at it and can show the progress she has made.

Aw haw haw haw! This thread has suddenly gotten way more entertaining. What a soap opera! Hell, this is even better than telling snail jokes!

"I wanted to talk to them but i couldnt find a way to say something without bursting into tears and screaming like a 2 yr old. (At which point nothing comming out of my mouth would make any sense, so why bother). "


Why bother? Because you owe them a sincere apology, that's why bother. Sometimes a simple 'I'm sorry' will get the ball rolling. Maybe even give them an opportunity to tell you how they feel, and you to just sit and hear it. And yeah, maybe cry like a 2 year old while listening, but at least listen.

It's just a thought and a more general one at that. but forcing an apology out of anyone is not a good way to to. Sometimes the offending person (which has been me on sooooo many occasions) needs a little time to chew the cud and really get to grips with the guilt to be able to put words to it. This gal may have been a shitty roomie/friend/camper but who hasn't? Some of my best friends have been the biggest assholes in their time and I have been an asshole to many through many bad times. Give the gal a little time here to catch her breath enough to get the words out and not feel like there is a firing squad waiting for her. The damage is not irreparable. The situation could have ended a lot more drastically and thankfully it didnt and everyone has a chance to make things better.

And Doody, to face the people who scorn you is the hardest thing of all. Please try to forgive yourself. On the grand scale of things in the world, this is all fixable stuff.

I'd just like to say one last thing to one and all,
-----There, but for the grace of God, go I.

And I think you should hand out poopsicles at the Spring PDF. hehe :)

LOL I wont lie, it scares the shit out of me too.. Lets just say, been there done that.. But it is also a slippery slope to go down when you start categorizing substances as ok and others not.. In my opinion, you have to do what kind of has been done here, as a community, determine what is acceptable behavior or not, regardless of the substances, then the community knows how they need to be or find themselves on the outside.. Believe me I have known many tweakers who behave in a manner you would never even know they are using but others who become real assholes, ditto with people tripping.. no different than any other substance. responsible use and behavior is responsible use and behavior regardless of the substance... Just my 2 cents..

Thanks, jinicap for bringing up something that I think should be a PDF topic and so with your inspiration, I'll go start a new thread, since this one, which has broken the 100-Reply mark, is rather 'pooped out'.

It takes some guts to share that. Most people would want to keep it in their past and not think about it. I sure as hell am not chomping at the bit to admit the stupid things I've done in the past :) These things take time and effort, as you've just pointed out.

The very fact that you address it in your daily life is probably WHY you were able to make changes in your behavior. Also, alcohol didnt control you, you controlled it! For a long time! Congrats!!! Free will wins again!!!

Is whiskey and whores half full or half empty? I think if she chooses to take the proper steps to get help changing her behavior, then its half full. Sometimes we need a wakeup-call to be objective about our own actions and their effects on others.

Not that we should try this experiment, but I'm fairly confident that if you drank now, you wouldn't use it as an excuse to do obnoxious things. I think you can do obnoxious things if you want to or not with or without alcohol :) I BELIEVE in you :)

How have I been? I've been on the west coast for a couple months. Just got back... It was awesome and highly disturbing at the same time :) And thats just the way I like it.

How did this thread turn into the Dr. Phil show?

"If your point is that anything you do, even on drugs, is a result of your free will, then the concept is pretty empty. "

Ok, so I can kill people and it isnt my fault because the drugs made me do it? Or is that my decision and my responsibility and the result of my free will?

Arguing a lack of conscious free will and arguing that drugs alter perception are two very different things.

"This is not a free will issue - there's lots of statistical data showing that drugs can make people do things they otherwise would not."

And where is this data? Show me. How do you know what people would or would not do otherwise? What if people use a drug as an excuse to do something they do want to do otherwise but didn't feel like they could get away with? Now they have an excuse! How do you rule that out in a scientific study? Have you even read any?

Sure, drugs can change lots of things, including perception, thats why they're called psychoactive. LSD will ALWAYS increase your heart rate, affect autotomic responses throughout the brain from pupillary response to thermal regulation. So it DOES have some universal effects. Just not BEHAVIORAL ones. What is different about that one person who does have psychosis while tripping? Could it be that they really want to act that way and feel free to do so? Or are they watching in HORROR as they engage in behaviors they detest and "would not do"?

LSD may alter my judgement, but I'm not going to belt out into opera ever in my lifetime, because I HATE FUCKING OPERA and thats something I would truely not do otherwise. And trust me on this one, I cant prove it, but it has not and will not ever happen. ESPECIALLY since I haven't learned latin or italian or whatever language thats in. You can shoot me up with all the elephant tranquilizer and DMT you want, It'll never happen.

If drugs alter your perception and judgement in your words, then how can an anorexic not eat cookies when on weed? They're hungry to begin with, they get MORE hungry and "altered", how do they resist? Perhaps by willpower? Ya think? Maybe?

"This is not a free will issue - there's lots of statistical data showing that drugs can make people do things they otherwise would not."

That would be the very definition of free will.

From wikipedia:
'Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic.'[...]

'Society generally holds people responsible for their actions, and will say that they deserve praise or blame for what they do. However, many believe that moral responsibility requires free will. Thus, another important issue in the debate on free will is whether individuals are ever morally responsible for their actions—and, if so, in what sense.'[...]

'Similarly, one of the most important ("first rank") diagnostic symptoms of schizophrenia is the delusion of being controlled by an external force.[80] People with schizophrenia will sometimes report that, although they are acting in the world, they did not initiate, or will, the particular actions they performed. This is sometimes likened to being a robot controlled by someone else. Although the neural mechanisms of schizophrenia are not yet clear, one influential hypothesis is that there is a breakdown in brain systems that compare motor commands with the feedback received from the body (known as proprioception), leading to attendant hallucinations and delusions of control.'

So maybe if you think the drugs control you, you just have schizophrenia, because I don't see anything here about any drugs removing free will.

Or maybe you have a legitimate Twinkie defense!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense

I choose to be addicted to cigarettes, you know why? Because the unpleasantness of quitting outweighs the desire I have to quit. Thus my desire to quit is a second-order will, and my first order will is to satiate my withdrawal. Everyone does what is most important to them at that moment. We all follow our first order will.

We may have strong impulses, but our brain can always resist them. Its only when we truly want to do something that we will act upon an impulse. If my first-order will was to quit, and my second order will was to avoid withdrawal by smoking, I'd quit and be miserable.

This is the universal quality you are arguing for:

"They can make you lose control of mind and body."

Then you say:

"Of course there is no universal response to a drug."

So some people take drugs and dont loose control of their mind and body? How the fuck could that happen? Thats like saying "milk makes people watch TV" even though many people drink milk and DONT watch TV. Come on, you dont even have a fucking correlation! Much less a causation of loss of free will.

The only universal quality I'm referring to is the quality of removing free will, if you think it only removes some people's free will, then you're agreeing that its not the drugs fault, and that something about those particular people makes them unable to control their behavior. That sounds a lot like underlying co-morbid mental illness to me. And I disagree that some people loose their free will because of the effects drugs have on them. It may change their perceptions, but what they do is always their first-order will. You cant control what you perceive, but you CAN control what you DO. Anything the subconscious throws up that they don't really want to do will not be done. If every subconscious urge were acted upon when on drugs the we would see tripping people doing some FUCKED UP THINGS all the time. Not any one thing universally, but generally unconscious impulses are very different than social behavior. We are hanging out with a bunch of people with almost no problems at these events. The only people who step beyond these social limits are those who WANT TO, and like I said, so often they use your argument that its the drugs fault to ALLOW them to indulge in the behavior they crave without it being socially unacceptable.

Would you say that a rapist is not making a concious decision to commit his crimes if he is drunk? It is known to lower inhibitions, and whatever his subconcious motivation to rape is is uncontrollable? FUCK THAT SHIT, Its totally a matter of free will, and drunk or not, he wants to commit that crime consciously. If you argue otherwise, you're not only wrong, you're an asshole. :P

There are mental disorders that inhibit free will. No known drugs though. Sorry. If you have some evidence that this is true, go ahead and show me, the burden of proof is on you. I cant prove a negative. All I'm doing is calling bullshit, and demanding evidence. You have none, just... well.

I didn't say people cant be addicted to cigarettes, I said addiction is a CHOICE. Thereby implying that it exists. I said it CANT BE A DISEASE. Work on your reading comprehension.

And using the fact that I actually cite at least somewhat-trustworthy evidence (wikipedia) as an insult against me just goes to show how much you prefer to ignore evidence to make it easier for you to believe in your unsubstantiated made-up ideas.

What do you base your argument that free will is lost on drugs on? A "well known fact" that its true? Or "everybody knows" or "they say.."? Any actual evidence?

"common sense" is an arbitrary human construct, and nature frankly doesn't give a fuck about what you think it should be like. Science doesn't back you up, even the insane court system doesn't allow drugs for diminished capacity defenses. They do allow organic neurological causes, and mental disorders. Which is exactly what I was arguing was much more likely. Go figure!

Don't get me wrong, you're a smart guy, but I'm pretty sure you've misread some of the things I said, I restated them and hopefully was more clear.

Just as in a creationism debate where you're under no obligation to "disprove" god, I am under no obligation to disprove your theory that drugs remove free will. Or even "make people do things they don't want to do when not on drugs". However you want to typify it I pretty much know what you're getting at.

If you had some evidence, perhaps something I'm unaware of, then I would be under an obligation to falsify it with stronger evidence.

You could argue that its really me who is making the assertion that drugs don't remove free will and I have to prove this. Well its a negative so I don't. :) Lucky me. And on top of that, you're equating it with the assertion that drugs have no affect on behavior. Yes, the statistics that people will respond one way or another differ if they're on drugs or not, to varying degrees of difference between individuals, and there are yet more statistics on that. That doesn't mean those people who changed their behavior didn't still have free will! I change my behavior based on assessing the risks and benefits. Those values change based on my perception of the world, but its STILL MY CHOICE. Nobody has a perfect objective view of the world, and requiring us to have one in order to make a conscious decision of our own free will that we are responsible for is absurd on its face, which is why I am raising lots of questions and doing whatever I can to speculate on real and hypothetical examples that would make it seem absurd. Just because you're ignorant of a law (and thus have a different perception than other people) doesn't mean you're not responsible for choosing to commit the act, legal or illegal in your mind, you weren't controlled into doing it like a robot. You decided to all by yourself. Just because you think something is legal doesn't mean you'll go out and do it. If suicide were made illegal today I doubt you'd leap off a building.

There is this COOL machine that uses TMS (Trans Cranial Magnetic Stimulation) that was attached to the equilibrium centers of the brain. You can put this "hat" on someone, and stand there with a fucking model airplane remote control unit, and DRIVE A PERSON AROUND. As long as they willingly walk, you can make them feel like they're falling over sideways, which FORCES them to walk left or right. The amazing thing is they retain free will, because if they're "commanded" left, you can see them TRYING to walk right the other way, they see themselves walking across the room the wrong way, they know they want to resist it and go to the door instead of the couch, and you see them acting strangely reaching their arms out towards the way they really want to go, and leaning over in that direction (which to them probably feels like they're falling) but they still walk left! There is no way to ignore the inputs because the brain itself is hijacked from the inside out, the signals the brain sends to move the legs differently is being overpowered by another signal from an OUTSIDE SOURCE. Control by an outside source is definitively lack of free will. Its no different than putting electrodes on a frogs legs. There is no outside source with drugs because everything we experience is a product of our own brain's function. No outside source of information other than our normal senses. A drug itself can alter our senses but contains no INFORMATION CONTENT. Its just information theory. The drug doesn't have a little molecular storage unit that has a program in brain-speak for "act like a sociopath". It may be easier to swallow this way: If you think of it as the LSD becoming part of our consciousness itself, thus any changes it has on our behavior are a result of its "meshing" with who we really are and what we really want. It can change the statistical outcome of what we do, but so can time and learning. Although I still argue that its inhibition-reducing effects are much less than that of alcohol, and alcohol use rarely results in psychosis without lots of other confounding factors like mental illness or personality disorder. So any changes in our behavior are merely because we have different motivations based on our emotions and ideas at the time. People change their emotions and ideas ALL THE TIME without drugs, and nobody would argue that that is a sign we lack free will.

Civility and socially acceptable behavior are learned behaviors. Some people are stupid. You cant tell me that people only act this way because they're on drugs. People clearly act this way without drugs, whats to stop one of those same people from doing it only when on drugs and then spouting convenient excuses blaming the drug? You have to rule that out as a confounding factor before your theory that people can do things they don't want to do when on drugs.

Some people are just... assholes. Drugs don't help, but they aren't the reason :)

I suspect in this particular case its not willful malice, probably an underlying mental disorder that was triggered by some thought or emotion that very well may have been more likely to be thought/felt while on the drug, but in all reality it was the brain that came up with those ideas. For example I cant come up with your ideas or emotions in my head, we're wired differently. Your dreams are unpredictable and you may consider them uncontrollable (at least most of the time) but they're still the product of your own brain. Nothing MADE you have that dream other than YOU :)

Intuitively its easy to believe what you're saying. Because we often see "two faced" people when they're sober or on drugs. This doesn't mean they're really two people, or that the drug is changing them. They just make different decisions in different situations, and other people would make the SAME decisions in different situations. Taking LSD is not unlike going to PDF and seeing all the crazy art and costumes and just having your perceptions altered by the sheer crazyness of it all. It IS a drug in and of itself. It probably had more of an effect on her thought process than the LSD. Yet no one would argue that their surroundings is grounds for loss of resposibility or free will over their actions.