Funny, I mentioned doing that precise thing in an email I just sent to Smelly. While it is my intention to eventually take this to the PDF bbs and ultimately the board of directors, tribe is a forum full of burners that has proven to be a valuable sounding board in the past. Before we passed the 20 or 30 post mark on the last thread, the discussion did seem to be moving in a positive direction.

Then, I woke up this morning, turned on my computer, and a whole bunch of shit was flying around.

So, with this thread I am giving people the opportunity to return to civil discourse. If you want to bicker like a bunch of damn bitches, take it somewhere else. However, for the most part, I value your opinions, even from those of you who tend to be a bit blunt or abrasive. In fact, if anything, the gravity of this situation warrants that type of attitude. But, being direct in sharing your thoughts is not the same as finger pointing or name calling.

Let me also mention something else...

The solution does not lie in the implementation of new policy. Read the WWW; the policies we have are very explicit: sound turn down is at midnight. Don't put ashes in the dumpster, etc. What we need to do is figure out how to enforce these policies more effectively and educate newcomers more proactively. Perhaps abandoning the "non-confrontational" approach will be necessary, especially as it relates to our sound policy.

So, I open the discussion once more.

And don't forget:

YOU'RE DOIN' IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!

Why not just have a "waiver" like everyone else has to sign? Maybe just post the Sound rules at the gate.

I think signing off on some kind of record of acknowledging the importance of the sound rules and possible consequences will help to make a difference, before sound camps become delinquent in the first place. I appreciate that community DJs in the past have found resolutions themselves, but there are many new individuals at PDF and people who decide that very night to play music who might need more explicit direction.

I quote Jonah: "the individuals who intend on DJing should be treated similarly to those who intend on spinning fire in the conclave: Attending a session to get all the rules and regulations straight. Perhaps after the meeting, a little badge could be given (similar to volunteer assignment badges) to vouch that the DJ attended the session and clearly understands/ is accountable for..."
ENFORCEMENT of the Sound Policy [TBD].

I add this in a much light-hearted spirit of teamwork than my previous smarm session on the first thread.

I regret but agree with the idea of yet another 'LAMINATE' to hang on people's necks. So far we have:
- Rangers (Yes, even non-confrontational non-cops need stinking Badges!)
- Moop Team (so others won't mistake MOOPers for thieves or scavengers?)
- Participation Station (Many hang out there; it's hard to know who's doing what.)
- Gate (Duh...you don't want to turn your precious barcode over to a scalper!)
- DPW (??? Maybe these should be MAILED out to the Early Arrivals Listees?)
- Sound Patrol ("I have a dB meter and a walkie-talkie and I'm not afraid to use 'em!")
- SOUND EXPERT (I'm the one in this camp that the Sound Patrol is going to dump on, so just turn it down BEFORE they show up!)

It doesn't matter to me if the badge reads "Sound Patrol" or "Sound Mind" but the idea behind "SOUND EXPERT" is to remind violators of BOTH the training that might be done by the PDF Staff AND the actual knowledge of the sound gear that most DJ's already possess. After midnight, if somebody is DJ'ing music in their camp, he/she should wear a 'laminate' issued by the Theme Camp Leader, or somebody with the training and the 'badge' should be nearby the DJ booth.
WHY? - The concept behind "BANNING A THEME CAMP" for violation of a sound policy is ridiculous. Think about it?!? New name next time, and a new leader filling out the questionnaire. But the same people, the same sound system and the same ignorance can still buy tickets and cause the same noise complaints every event...at least until their individual participation starts to become obvious. And what happens then? The INDIVIDUALS are asked not to return, for the good of the community. Currently, some great Theme Camp Leaders have to take the heat for a vague sound policy with little to no expertise, or a consistent enforcement method. It sucks to be them!

Inevitably this is VOLUNTARY compliance: it only takes a few seconds of loud noise after midnight to generate a complaint. I admit to being guilty in the past of firing up the balloon burner; I never received any complaints then, but it could easily cause some, so generally I lock it away for the night. Even if a relatively quiet drum circle, or a little group cheering on a pole-dancer at 3AM, is not generating any complaints, it still doesn't mean that the camp next to them feels they need to overcome that sound by amping up their bass, "just for a minute or two while so-and-so is fire-spinning? Then we'll turn it back down." The overall BIG result of SOUND should be examined by AT LEAST ONE SOUND EXPERT in EVERY CAMP. (Just some voluntary delegate that was formally trained in PDF's Sound Policy, but not necessarily holding a dB meter OR a radio?) It's my opinion that people with the same training speak the same language, and therefore they communicate better, faster and wiser...and in this case, quieter also?

I would add that perhaps every Leader who sends in a Theme Camp Questionnaire should sign and 'check-the-box' that they "have read the Sound Policy and will either attend the PDF Sound Policy Training Session[TBD?]."

Every Theme Camp Leader would be answerable for this SOUND EXPERTISE, or have a member in their camp that they have appointed to attend the training and 'wear the badge' while the TCL is, uh, sleeping, for instance?

Why is this good? Because it would be best if there IS a noise complaint, that the Sound-Patroller that is dispatched to handle the complaint can find and speak directly to the SOUND person in that camp who is pre-designated as being responsible for knowing how to operate their camp's soundboard, speakers, amplifier(s), and generator.

In my few instances this past event trying to 'enforce' the Sound Policy, I was given unintentional run-arounds. Truly, I think it was unintentional...the DJ's knew how to work the soundboard, but not how to isolate the subwoofer and/or the systems' outermost speakers. The person who knew how to do that was not around, but somebody did volunteer "to go get him" and he showed up ten minutes later. Overall, it did take longer than anybody wanted to get the bass level turned down, and I didn't have any specific training or authority other than as a "newbie" Ranger responding to a noise complaint. Initially the complaint(s) came to me via the Ranger/Gate radios, and then escalated to an actual person-to-person request for a 'bigger, better' sound turn-down result. The noise level went down for awhile, but as often happens, it crept up as time went by. Part of this was just carelessness; part of it was just the result of 'tuning' by the DJ. That's where COMPREHENSIVE SOUND SYSTEM CHECK-OUT would be helpful to the DJ's; and this technical task can really only be done effectively by the Sound Systems' owners, designers and users IN COOPERATION WITH the Sound Policy ENFORCERS.

Gee, I think I got thru this long-ass post without using the F word?

I agree with your points; beefing up on sound patrol is the most obvious solution. Having just one person trying to shout over loud-ass speakers to turn the sound down is difficult and often ineffective. If a polite reminder does not work, having one or two people to back that person up may be enough. If that doesn't work, then turn off their generator to show that you mean business. A reminder of the sound policies in the blissful silence that ensues would then be warranted. Providing they are then agreeable to the sound turn-down, they will be allowed to power their generators back up and resume the party. If they continue to violate the sound policy, then as a last resort, their generator will be confiscated until they leave the event.

Yes, generators have uses other than powering amplifiers. However, if you are unable to cooperate with sound policies and as such, abuse the priviledge of running a generator, either you can stay the remainder of the burn without power, or take your generator with you and leave. The problem comes down to one of enforcement. You can tell someone to turn the music down all you want, but if they don't cooperate, you have really two options: allow them to continue violating everyone's ear drums or turn the music down/off for them.

As far as moop, I think the moop map is a great idea, but where that will really only be useful is for theme camps, and I know for a fact that the theme camp area was moop-free when I left. How it is utilized at BRC is theme camps which prove to be moop problems don't get good placement the following year, or if they are repeat offenders, don't get to have a theme camp at all.

A possible solution I thought of last night is requiring one member of every theme camp to work a final moop shift, where they must moop the pavilion and walk-in camping areas in addition to their own theme camp area. Is this fair? I think so. Theme camps are responsible for entertaining our community, so they should hold some responsibility for the community as a whole. When people spend the weekend partying, at your camp or where ever else, they will leave shit behind. The fact is, regardless of awareness and education, some people just don't give a fuck if they come to a burn and trash the place. They only came for the party anyway. Are these people in the minority? Absolutely. But, I will say it again, it is our responsibility as a community to pick up after them.

Also, I was not aware that the responsibility of sound policing was basically removed from the Rangers this fall. I think this is a bad idea. While it may not be their "official" responsibility, I think the Rangers should oversee sound policy enforcement and moop proceedure (i.e. make sure the appropriate people are doing their jobs, and if not, take action), especially as it relates to theme camp compliance. Do some sort of "roll call" to make sure someone from every theme camp is there mooping. If no one shows from a given camp, push them to the back field next burn. Repeat offenders don't get to host a theme camp anymore.

It sucks that it has come down to this, but self-policing seems to have run its course.

Also, let me thank everyone for keeping the discussion civil and constructive. It would be nice to reach some sort of consensus.

Dear Fellow PDF Folks:

I do not see why this has become such a hot topic. I was a virgin at the Spring event and I knew that sound was to be turned down at midnight and trash was to go into the approriate trash can. Sadly I chose not to camp at a theme camp for the Fall becuase I was tired of hearing all the noise from nearby theme camps. It seems to me that we just need to enforce rules already in place rather than to make new rules for the sound and moop issues.

Just my two cents.

John

you're right, her certainly did get shit done...

I don't agree with what he did obviously...

He's a doer, not a thinker...

thats why Kerry lost to him, he was to much of a thinker

who are you talking to jonah ?
if you are calling me out on not being constructive
i think you missed my points
if its not me then please call them out by name because based on when you posted
it seems to imply that i have nothing constructive to say

the bat comment was said with sarcasm, if you knew me you would know that
and i don't think it detracts from what i said

as for what i have done for pdf lately
your pic gallery has the answer to that question
people.tribe.net/9a23d87e-...b36ce47c32
i helped make that happen

and my feed back is the answer is out there but more paperwork is not necessary
i am not bitchin

They be Fogified!

There were complaints, and something was done, apparently enough to last the weekend.
Sound turn down started EARLY on Sunday because of complaints Saturday. Most DJs were
quite good about turning things down when told at that point, and apparently reminders only
needed to go out when new DJs took over, or if the equipment had been off for a while.

I don't know how things went with sound patrol during Friday/Saturday night.

I agree with a 3 strikes enforceable policy with sound meters. Give the sound patrol the
authority to turn off someones generator, and take it to the board if it goes beyond that. I wouldn't
want to touch anyones stuff (and I'd be nervous about killing a generator without letting them
turn their equipment off, we don't want to damage anything, but at the same time, they've already
been warned, will they comply with turning things off? I guess if you said "I'm turning your
generator off, you've got 2 minutes to get your equipment ready).

"If the MOOP problem was mostly in open camping and the pavillion, I'm not sure what good a MOOP map would do."

This was my opinion at first, but after chewing on it, I realized that going through the process of creating a moop map would mean that any remaining moop would be removed in the process, and not left for the vets to clean up. Moop proceedure would have to be more thorough, plain and simple. Of course there would be the benefit of seeing exactly where the "violators" were camped, and having that information available to everyone who attended the burn. This way, you could see if you or one of your neighbors left anything behind. At the very least it will create a higher awareness of where any leftover moop is, and it will ensure that the grounds are clear before we leave.

As far as sound patrol...having decibel meters doesn't really cover the whole picture. Subwoofers need to be turned OFF after midnight; you could be within "safe" decibel range but have bass traveling a mile or more, or conversely, if your woofers are off but your music is still loud, your immediate camping neighbors might be bothered, but the sound dissipates after a few hundred yards. Determining if a subwoofer is turned off is very simple and does not require any sort of special equpiment...simply walk over and place your hand on it. If it is vibrating, turn it off.